1 00:00:13,490 --> 00:00:09,470 on this episode of skeptical scientists 2 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:13,500 would love to tear down a paradise of 3 00:00:21,109 --> 00:00:17,880 course science told love of this science 4 00:00:23,660 --> 00:00:21,119 is not a religion science scientists 5 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:23,670 would love to tear down a big name and 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:25,890 say no that feel is incorrect this 7 00:00:30,890 --> 00:00:28,410 secret they might even get a big price 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:30,900 for that they simply get advancement in 9 00:00:36,860 --> 00:00:35,250 their career this is not we science is a 10 00:00:38,450 --> 00:00:36,870 different thing I don't think you have a 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:38,460 good impression of sight you're doing 12 00:00:44,959 --> 00:00:41,850 this broadcast but to tell me that this 13 00:00:47,869 --> 00:00:44,969 is published in peer-reviewed journals 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:47,879 well I'd like to know if such an image a 15 00:00:53,750 --> 00:00:51,210 major observation goes contre to so many 16 00:01:00,319 --> 00:00:53,760 other things is it published in Nature 17 00:01:03,049 --> 00:01:00,329 in science George because this is I have 18 00:01:06,710 --> 00:01:03,059 300 episodes of why I think you are in 19 00:01:09,350 --> 00:01:06,720 incredibly generous spirit that that 20 00:01:12,590 --> 00:01:09,360 defies your philosophical 21 00:01:15,289 --> 00:01:12,600 rantings about atheism you are not an 22 00:01:17,630 --> 00:01:15,299 atheist in your soul George and it comes 23 00:01:20,780 --> 00:01:17,640 through loud and clear but your your 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:20,790 just are not well informed about the 25 00:01:26,270 --> 00:01:24,210 science that contradicts this idea that 26 00:01:27,460 --> 00:01:26,280 that we are these biological robots in a 27 00:01:31,410 --> 00:01:27,470 meaningless world 28 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:31,420 stay with us for skeptic Oh 29 00:01:41,370 --> 00:01:39,150 [Music] 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:41,380 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 31 00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:42,850 controversial science with leading 32 00:01:47,370 --> 00:01:45,280 researchers thinkers and their critics 33 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:47,380 I'm your host Alex Karras and for some 34 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:50,290 time now I've had this take on all 35 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:53,710 comers spirit attitude with regard to 36 00:01:58,890 --> 00:01:56,250 materialist science especially 37 00:02:00,570 --> 00:01:58,900 neuroscientist so in jime a friend of 38 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:00,580 the skeptic Osho and one of the scouts 39 00:02:04,340 --> 00:02:02,170 out there scouting out people who might 40 00:02:06,660 --> 00:02:04,350 be willing to engage in this topic 41 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:06,670 suggested today's guest dr. George 42 00:02:11,490 --> 00:02:08,890 Parkes eNOS I was like sure he's an 43 00:02:13,199 --> 00:02:11,500 acclaimed neuroscientist his work which 44 00:02:15,090 --> 00:02:13,209 is really quite extraordinary he's 45 00:02:16,740 --> 00:02:15,100 developed this atlas if you will for 46 00:02:18,660 --> 00:02:16,750 mapping the brain function of 47 00:02:20,430 --> 00:02:18,670 experimental animals and which is useful 48 00:02:22,110 --> 00:02:20,440 developing medicines or treatments or 49 00:02:24,750 --> 00:02:22,120 something like that so it's obviously 50 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:24,760 really important work now the actual 51 00:02:28,380 --> 00:02:26,650 debate between George and I and we did 52 00:02:30,270 --> 00:02:28,390 set it up as a debate he had full 53 00:02:31,860 --> 00:02:30,280 knowledge of everything I was gonna ask 54 00:02:33,690 --> 00:02:31,870 him and I even previewed some of the 55 00:02:36,780 --> 00:02:33,700 clips I was gonna send him beforehand 56 00:02:39,750 --> 00:02:36,790 but the debate turned out to be more of 57 00:02:41,729 --> 00:02:39,760 a trip down memory lane for myself and 58 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:41,739 probably for many of you sceptical 59 00:02:46,830 --> 00:02:43,810 listeners who have tried to walk people 60 00:02:50,390 --> 00:02:46,840 along the path from the old paradigm of 61 00:02:52,710 --> 00:02:50,400 mind equals brain to whatever lies 62 00:02:54,870 --> 00:02:52,720 beyond enough said 63 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:54,880 here's the interview today we're joined 64 00:02:59,400 --> 00:02:57,250 by acclaimed neuroscientist professor 65 00:03:01,650 --> 00:02:59,410 George box eNOS from the University of 66 00:03:04,590 --> 00:03:01,660 New South Wales Australia where he's 67 00:03:07,380 --> 00:03:04,600 both a highly regarded academic having 68 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:07,390 published more than 45 books on the 69 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:09,250 structure of the brain and neuroscience 70 00:03:15,479 --> 00:03:12,540 as well as a very highly respected 71 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:15,489 neuroscience researcher who's striving 72 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:17,530 to make our lives better by 73 00:03:23,550 --> 00:03:21,310 understanding the human brain dr. Parkes 74 00:03:26,580 --> 00:03:23,560 eNOS it's quite an honor to have you on 75 00:03:29,780 --> 00:03:26,590 thank you for joining on schedule may I 76 00:03:32,310 --> 00:03:29,790 start with a quote from Mark Twain I 77 00:03:38,030 --> 00:03:32,320 always get them embarrassed when they 78 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:41,610 love Mark Twain quotes and I think that 79 00:03:46,530 --> 00:03:44,890 that's very fitting in this case because 80 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:46,540 anyone who would look at your bio would 81 00:03:51,390 --> 00:03:48,310 see that your accomplishments are many 82 00:03:53,930 --> 00:03:51,400 and you're really to be highly respected 83 00:03:57,470 --> 00:03:53,940 for that I mean a life in science is 84 00:04:00,690 --> 00:03:57,480 difficult even if it's a mainstream 85 00:04:02,550 --> 00:04:00,700 science or even more difficult with some 86 00:04:04,410 --> 00:04:02,560 of the people we talked to who venture 87 00:04:06,449 --> 00:04:04,420 outside of the mainstream but it's still 88 00:04:07,770 --> 00:04:06,459 a difficult life and it's a life of 89 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:07,780 service and trying to make life better 90 00:04:17,610 --> 00:04:15,130 so it has been fun scientists are 91 00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:17,620 usually just following their curiosity 92 00:04:24,090 --> 00:04:20,320 so there is inherent pleasure in that 93 00:04:28,790 --> 00:04:24,100 and they are not out there to solve the 94 00:04:32,159 --> 00:04:28,800 world's problems they really they are to 95 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:32,169 find something some relation in nature 96 00:04:39,510 --> 00:04:34,930 that's what actually Flores said who 97 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:39,520 discovered the penicillin and who did 98 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:44,050 more than him for Humanity and yet even 99 00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:47,290 he said that it was an academic question 100 00:04:53,850 --> 00:04:51,700 that he was asking and the suffering 101 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:53,860 humanity was not in his mind 102 00:04:59,430 --> 00:04:56,290 it was pleasant that his work was of 103 00:05:03,870 --> 00:04:59,440 help but it wasn't the reason he did it 104 00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:03,880 so we are not all that altruistic that 105 00:05:08,580 --> 00:05:07,120 is a wonderful wonderful lead-in to what 106 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:08,590 we're going to talk about because I 107 00:05:13,469 --> 00:05:10,930 think that gets it in many ways gets at 108 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:13,479 the heart of what's really going on and 109 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:15,970 whether we really do understand even 110 00:05:22,650 --> 00:05:19,810 ourselves our motivations and the larger 111 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:22,660 way in which we fit into this world and 112 00:05:26,340 --> 00:05:24,250 who we are and what this world is all 113 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:26,350 about so let me just tell listeners that 114 00:05:30,210 --> 00:05:27,610 we're gonna do something a little bit 115 00:05:32,940 --> 00:05:30,220 different George because you are not 116 00:05:35,340 --> 00:05:32,950 here to sell any of your recent books 117 00:05:37,350 --> 00:05:35,350 although I'm sure if folks want to go 118 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:37,360 and check out your books most of them 119 00:05:41,310 --> 00:05:38,890 are academic titles do you have any 120 00:05:43,140 --> 00:05:41,320 titles that are more for the general 121 00:05:44,790 --> 00:05:43,150 population I I don't really know the 122 00:05:48,330 --> 00:05:44,800 answer to that so I apologize but tell 123 00:05:54,659 --> 00:05:48,340 me do you there's a problem it's in 124 00:05:56,620 --> 00:05:54,669 Greek and for most people that's Greek 125 00:06:02,559 --> 00:05:56,630 to me 126 00:06:04,529 --> 00:06:02,569 it's a novel that deals with some of the 127 00:06:10,450 --> 00:06:04,539 issues that you are concerned with 128 00:06:15,550 --> 00:06:10,460 freewill nature nurture as well as the 129 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:15,560 environment and religion and I hope it 130 00:06:20,290 --> 00:06:17,330 would be published in English right now 131 00:06:26,890 --> 00:06:20,300 it's in the hands of an agent it is 132 00:06:28,990 --> 00:06:26,900 called in His image and it refers to a 133 00:06:30,969 --> 00:06:29,000 rather asks a question what would 134 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:30,979 someone with a genetic endowment of 135 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:33,710 Christ say about the state of the 136 00:06:41,980 --> 00:06:37,570 environment today and the issues of 137 00:06:44,980 --> 00:06:41,990 freewill determinism in what forms our 138 00:06:47,350 --> 00:06:44,990 personality and do we have any freedom 139 00:06:50,050 --> 00:06:47,360 at all coming to this and it is 140 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:50,060 understandable by laypeople and 141 00:06:55,450 --> 00:06:51,500 hopefully it will be published in 142 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:55,460 English Wow I mean I mean right off the 143 00:06:58,659 --> 00:06:57,050 bat I have to digress him in a little 144 00:07:02,980 --> 00:06:58,669 bit because I'm surprised are you a 145 00:07:06,219 --> 00:07:02,990 believer in Jesus Christ as in just 146 00:07:10,089 --> 00:07:06,229 figured you were asking that I am an 147 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:10,099 admirer of Christ as a man as a human 148 00:07:19,089 --> 00:07:12,969 being and I don't have any room for 149 00:07:22,629 --> 00:07:19,099 metaphysics okay good I mean highly 150 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:22,639 question the the historicity of the 151 00:07:26,050 --> 00:07:24,710 figure Jesus is portrayed in the Bible I 152 00:07:28,930 --> 00:07:26,060 don't know that that were ever there 153 00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:28,940 ever was such an individual exactly like 154 00:07:35,770 --> 00:07:32,120 that and I really questioned the source 155 00:07:38,379 --> 00:07:35,780 in an interpretation of that book but 156 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:38,389 hey that's that's an aside we can talk 157 00:07:41,740 --> 00:07:40,250 about that another time I just wanted to 158 00:07:43,749 --> 00:07:41,750 tell people that you know what we're 159 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:43,759 gonna try and do today I think is you 160 00:07:47,110 --> 00:07:45,380 were kind enough to join me in what 161 00:07:49,839 --> 00:07:47,120 really amounts to somewhat of a debate a 162 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:49,849 friendly debate discussion about some of 163 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:51,650 these issues surrounding the topics that 164 00:07:56,370 --> 00:07:53,330 we talked about so much here on skeptic 165 00:07:59,459 --> 00:07:56,380 oh and that is consciousness and 166 00:08:02,100 --> 00:07:59,469 scientific materialism which goes 167 00:08:04,290 --> 00:08:02,110 hand-in-hand I think with the 168 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:04,300 fundamental assumption made by 169 00:08:08,829 --> 00:08:07,610 neuroscience and your name and your work 170 00:08:09,450 --> 00:08:08,839 was brought to my attention by a 171 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:09,460 listener who 172 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:11,889 sent me this little article this piece 173 00:08:18,029 --> 00:08:14,650 that you wrote titled why psychology 174 00:08:21,409 --> 00:08:18,039 lost its soul everything comes from the 175 00:08:24,689 --> 00:08:21,419 brain in which you kind of call to task 176 00:08:27,450 --> 00:08:24,699 psychologists for kind of stepping 177 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:27,460 gingerly around this issue of soul and 178 00:08:30,089 --> 00:08:28,930 soulfulness and you're saying look 179 00:08:34,529 --> 00:08:30,099 there's no such thing 180 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:34,539 we are brain based brain first beings 181 00:08:40,110 --> 00:08:36,490 and we should just kind of accept that 182 00:08:44,730 --> 00:08:40,120 so is that kind of our starting point 183 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:44,740 here or your said it and I think that we 184 00:08:49,139 --> 00:08:47,290 actually could be better people can 185 00:08:51,870 --> 00:08:49,149 understand the others better can forgive 186 00:08:57,269 --> 00:08:51,880 better you mentioned Christ and he was 187 00:08:59,579 --> 00:08:57,279 the first one that I know who said 188 00:09:03,949 --> 00:08:59,589 something neuroscience says today that 189 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:03,959 there's no freedom there is no dignity 190 00:09:10,860 --> 00:09:07,990 there's just genes that are sculpted by 191 00:09:13,620 --> 00:09:10,870 experience and you can't blame your 192 00:09:16,460 --> 00:09:13,630 genes and you can't blame that you were 193 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:16,470 born in the US or in Afghanistan and 194 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:19,930 Jesus said for those who of those who 195 00:09:27,420 --> 00:09:23,410 crucified Him that they don't know what 196 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:27,430 they're doing he forgave them that is he 197 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:30,450 understood that the actions of humans 198 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:35,050 are based on only if he wouldn't have 199 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:37,810 known allergies but on the environment 200 00:09:42,810 --> 00:09:40,810 that produced them that shaped them and 201 00:09:45,180 --> 00:09:42,820 that's what neuroscience s today that 202 00:09:47,970 --> 00:09:45,190 the behavior is determined by two 203 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:47,980 factors and only two factors none other 204 00:09:53,430 --> 00:09:51,310 which are the genetic endowment that we 205 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:53,440 get from parents and you have no option 206 00:09:58,710 --> 00:09:55,930 no choice what parent would to select 207 00:10:01,769 --> 00:09:58,720 and the environmental influence on that 208 00:10:04,019 --> 00:10:01,779 genetic endowment and you didn't choose 209 00:10:06,540 --> 00:10:04,029 two people in the United States who 210 00:10:09,060 --> 00:10:06,550 whatever religious parents from 211 00:10:11,430 --> 00:10:09,070 non-religious parents it was thrust upon 212 00:10:13,650 --> 00:10:11,440 you you have no choice and therefore you 213 00:10:15,630 --> 00:10:13,660 cannot be blamed this can result in a 214 00:10:17,910 --> 00:10:15,640 faction of society and I can go into 215 00:10:20,660 --> 00:10:17,920 that if you like once you understand 216 00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:20,670 that you can forgive people 217 00:10:27,180 --> 00:10:24,160 okay I don't agree with much of that but 218 00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:27,190 what I thought we might Center this 219 00:10:33,329 --> 00:10:30,910 discussion around are some quotes that 220 00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:33,339 I've sent you from some former guests 221 00:10:37,860 --> 00:10:35,680 that I think frame up this discussion in 222 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:37,870 a slightly different way and you know 223 00:10:43,439 --> 00:10:39,490 the first one I was going to play for 224 00:10:46,259 --> 00:10:43,449 our audience and for you is from UCLA 225 00:10:48,329 --> 00:10:46,269 research psychiatrist and fellow brains 226 00:10:50,910 --> 00:10:48,339 research or someone who's very much into 227 00:10:53,939 --> 00:10:50,920 brain research and was really did some 228 00:10:56,249 --> 00:10:53,949 pioneering work with brain imaging in 229 00:10:59,519 --> 00:10:56,259 order to understand and help people 230 00:11:01,470 --> 00:10:59,529 overcome OCD obsessive compulsive 231 00:11:04,499 --> 00:11:01,480 disorder that is dr. Jeffery Schwartz 232 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:04,509 from University of California Los 233 00:11:10,730 --> 00:11:07,690 Angeles who is you know to his credit 234 00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:10,740 one of the world recognized leaders in 235 00:11:16,050 --> 00:11:13,600 neuroplasticity let me play for you the 236 00:11:21,449 --> 00:11:16,060 quote that he has that I think gets to 237 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:21,459 in a way what you were saying they are 238 00:11:29,639 --> 00:11:24,550 committed ideologically to the notion 239 00:11:34,019 --> 00:11:29,649 that everything is the brain so you get 240 00:11:36,389 --> 00:11:34,029 into this profound mismatch and I've the 241 00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:36,399 mismatch is that itself up to any person 242 00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:39,519 who has any kind of experience with with 243 00:11:44,519 --> 00:11:41,790 meditation or even just basic 244 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:44,529 contemplation that this is going on and 245 00:11:50,460 --> 00:11:47,970 yet they're confronted with an academic 246 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:50,470 explanation that is a stone wall and 247 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:52,510 denying any of it is that that's not a 248 00:11:58,889 --> 00:11:55,930 reasonable summary of the situation what 249 00:12:02,850 --> 00:11:58,899 dr. Schwartz is alluding to and I think 250 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:02,860 you kind of reframed it in your really 251 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:04,510 you're retelling of the Jesus story 252 00:12:09,329 --> 00:12:06,970 because Jesus wasn't saying any of that 253 00:12:13,290 --> 00:12:09,339 Jesus was saying that we are not just 254 00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:13,300 our body jesus is coming completely from 255 00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:16,480 the understanding that we are more than 256 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:20,079 our brain when Jesus is saying that he 257 00:12:27,629 --> 00:12:24,250 is reflecting the same thing that almost 258 00:12:30,990 --> 00:12:27,639 every wisdom tradition throughout time 259 00:12:33,460 --> 00:12:31,000 has said so when I hear dr. Schwartz 260 00:12:35,139 --> 00:12:33,470 talk up about the profound mismatch 261 00:12:38,110 --> 00:12:35,149 I think what he's talking about George 262 00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:38,120 is that 90% of people no matter how you 263 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:39,920 ask the question whether you ask the 264 00:12:43,660 --> 00:12:41,810 question do you believe in God whether 265 00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:43,670 you ask the question do you believe in a 266 00:12:46,509 --> 00:12:44,540 higher power 267 00:12:49,180 --> 00:12:46,519 do you have free will do you believe 268 00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:49,190 everything is predetermined more than 90 269 00:12:53,620 --> 00:12:50,720 percent of people have this experience 270 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:53,630 that they are more that there is 271 00:12:58,090 --> 00:12:55,850 something more and these great books 272 00:13:00,160 --> 00:12:58,100 like the Bible if you want to call that 273 00:13:02,079 --> 00:13:00,170 a great book reflect that so I just 274 00:13:04,509 --> 00:13:02,089 don't understand how you can turn that 275 00:13:08,350 --> 00:13:04,519 around and say that it was some kind of 276 00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:08,360 the treatise for neuroscience it was 277 00:13:14,620 --> 00:13:11,360 completely under the the understanding 278 00:13:17,439 --> 00:13:14,630 that we are more than these biological 279 00:13:19,329 --> 00:13:17,449 robots right you can understand Christ 280 00:13:22,509 --> 00:13:19,339 understood the behavior of those who 281 00:13:24,819 --> 00:13:22,519 crucified Him he understood that they 282 00:13:27,069 --> 00:13:24,829 would have been on his side if only they 283 00:13:30,189 --> 00:13:27,079 had been exposed to his teachings and 284 00:13:34,030 --> 00:13:30,199 not to the Pharisees teachings some 285 00:13:37,060 --> 00:13:34,040 other teachings now if you take the view 286 00:13:40,569 --> 00:13:37,070 that it's the brain and only and that 287 00:13:45,310 --> 00:13:40,579 there is nothing metaphysical then you 288 00:13:48,670 --> 00:13:45,320 don't blame the soul for the autistic 289 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:48,680 child that is misbehaving it is cruel 290 00:13:58,530 --> 00:13:54,130 Alex to blame the soul of a little child 291 00:14:01,449 --> 00:13:58,540 rather than a misfiring of neurons 292 00:14:04,509 --> 00:14:01,459 misconnection of neurons a developmental 293 00:14:08,079 --> 00:14:04,519 error in the formation of the brain of 294 00:14:11,130 --> 00:14:08,089 the child this again will become you 295 00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:11,140 become if you can forgive easier 296 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:14,540 somebody who left you Europe let's say 297 00:14:18,309 --> 00:14:17,569 you're a scorned lover your girlfriend 298 00:14:22,389 --> 00:14:18,319 left you 299 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:22,399 right the churches are more than 50% but 300 00:14:28,930 --> 00:14:24,970 you will interfere with her at her house 301 00:14:31,930 --> 00:14:28,940 at her work at her Facebook page a 302 00:14:35,050 --> 00:14:31,940 twitter account at the internet in 303 00:14:37,809 --> 00:14:35,060 general and you might even hurt her you 304 00:14:40,689 --> 00:14:37,819 might even kill her I'm telling you if 305 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:40,699 you understand that she had no more 306 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:43,730 capacity to keep loving you when she 307 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:47,570 lost that love then you are able 308 00:14:53,530 --> 00:14:49,870 to forget her and not love her anymore 309 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:53,540 then you can forgive herself 310 00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:55,610 that's fine she dropped me she doesn't 311 00:15:00,820 --> 00:14:58,160 love me that's it and you can become 312 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:00,830 gentler in your behavior and understand 313 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:03,770 the behavior of the people in 314 00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:06,890 Afghanistan when we are told that this 315 00:15:15,010 --> 00:15:11,120 woman burned the Koran and the men 316 00:15:17,410 --> 00:15:15,020 chased her to stone her to death you can 317 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:17,420 understand them that's the environment 318 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:19,370 that's was produced and if you were born 319 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:20,810 in Afghanistan and I were born in 320 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:23,810 Afghanistan likely will be stoning that 321 00:15:29,860 --> 00:15:26,450 woman - but we were born in a different 322 00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:29,870 environment and we do not stone a woman 323 00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:32,870 who burned the Bible so you can 324 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:35,510 understand behavior better if you follow 325 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:38,330 this paradigm around other than the 326 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:39,890 metaphysical paradigm that you are 327 00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:40,310 following 328 00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:45,590 I mean Georgia I'm kind of dumbstruck 329 00:15:52,630 --> 00:15:50,000 because your philosophical humanitarian 330 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:52,640 sentiments are awesome for an atheist 331 00:15:57,490 --> 00:15:55,250 but that's why I like to keep bringing 332 00:16:00,460 --> 00:15:57,500 things back to science because I think 333 00:16:02,890 --> 00:16:00,470 it kind of clears the table of a lot of 334 00:16:04,690 --> 00:16:02,900 flowery talk that we could agree on 335 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:04,700 do you understand dr. Schwartz's 336 00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:07,250 research dr. schwartz is a brain 337 00:16:12,630 --> 00:16:09,680 scientist like you are and what he 338 00:16:15,310 --> 00:16:12,640 sought to do is find out whether 339 00:16:17,950 --> 00:16:15,320 thinking about thinking that is 340 00:16:20,410 --> 00:16:17,960 mindfulness which isn't in one of your 341 00:16:22,180 --> 00:16:20,420 two things that you said creates all our 342 00:16:25,510 --> 00:16:22,190 experience thinking about thinking 343 00:16:27,540 --> 00:16:25,520 whether that affects the structure of 344 00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:27,550 the human brain and he found 345 00:16:32,620 --> 00:16:30,950 conclusively that it does so that's why 346 00:16:36,130 --> 00:16:32,630 he's one of the world lore ID 347 00:16:38,980 --> 00:16:36,140 authorities on neuroplasticity because 348 00:16:40,570 --> 00:16:38,990 he found that mindfulness does affect 349 00:16:42,340 --> 00:16:40,580 the structure of the brain so at the 350 00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:42,350 very least now we have a question of the 351 00:16:45,010 --> 00:16:43,670 chicken and the egg I mean if you think 352 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:45,020 the brain creates everything and 353 00:16:48,970 --> 00:16:46,970 thoughts create the brain well then what 354 00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:48,980 came first thoughts or the brain come to 355 00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:51,590 that but firstly I need to correct you 356 00:16:59,020 --> 00:16:56,800 something you say you I am autistic or 357 00:17:00,550 --> 00:16:59,030 humanitarian whatever you mentioned 358 00:17:03,970 --> 00:17:00,560 they're foreign 359 00:17:08,140 --> 00:17:03,980 that is really below the belt that's 360 00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:08,150 just not correct because Alan why just 361 00:17:15,460 --> 00:17:12,230 later because atheists can contribute to 362 00:17:16,210 --> 00:17:15,470 the society after East Italy as well as 363 00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:16,220 anybody else 364 00:17:23,799 --> 00:17:20,990 in fact the I know one study we are the 365 00:17:26,770 --> 00:17:23,809 children all over you might be awareness 366 00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:26,780 of Christians the children of Muslims in 367 00:17:33,330 --> 00:17:28,370 the Krishna the children of atheists 368 00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:33,340 they were rated on the autism spectrum 369 00:17:37,030 --> 00:17:34,600 [Music] 370 00:17:38,970 --> 00:17:37,040 but why would we want to compare these 371 00:17:40,620 --> 00:17:38,980 phony-baloney religions I mean 372 00:17:44,020 --> 00:17:40,630 Christianity uh 373 00:17:45,910 --> 00:17:44,030 Islam I mean these are not religious 374 00:17:48,490 --> 00:17:45,920 traditions that we hold up as the 375 00:17:50,820 --> 00:17:48,500 pillars of high thought no these are 376 00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:50,830 people that have been in many ways 377 00:17:54,460 --> 00:17:52,880 manipulated and controlled into a 378 00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:54,470 certain way of thinking in the same way 379 00:17:58,390 --> 00:17:56,240 that atheists have that's why we got to 380 00:18:00,400 --> 00:17:58,400 kind of clear the table of all that and 381 00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:00,410 try and sort it out through the best we 382 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:02,270 can through the science that we have who 383 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:04,610 cares about the study of whether you 384 00:18:10,030 --> 00:18:07,850 know Mormons or Scientologists to her or 385 00:18:13,090 --> 00:18:10,040 atheists are you know more loving in 386 00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:13,100 some situation I don't care I was not so 387 00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:15,950 bad i am i have to refute that 388 00:18:20,140 --> 00:18:17,600 alex and you have to allow me the time 389 00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:20,150 and i'll tell you this the Christians in 390 00:18:25,990 --> 00:18:22,880 the Muslims constitute something like 391 00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:26,000 maybe 60% maybe more I don't know other 392 00:18:30,850 --> 00:18:28,220 of the population and therefore I'm 393 00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:30,860 comparing the Atheist chill the children 394 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:33,200 of atheists with the children at least 395 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:34,850 that study compared the children of 396 00:18:39,850 --> 00:18:37,490 atheists with the children or people who 397 00:18:42,790 --> 00:18:39,860 have faith in these faiths all right and 398 00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:42,800 they found that the two latest actually 399 00:18:50,260 --> 00:18:47,660 were scored better on compassion on 400 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:50,270 autism than the other children I am NOT 401 00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:52,490 claiming moral superiority for their 402 00:18:59,890 --> 00:18:56,390 case I am just taking Ambridge to your 403 00:19:04,150 --> 00:18:59,900 statement that for an atheist now Alex 404 00:19:06,340 --> 00:19:04,160 you need to take that back I take it 405 00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:06,350 back in the sense that you called me on 406 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:08,780 it George but I don't take it back in 407 00:19:13,620 --> 00:19:11,450 the sense that I intended it which is 408 00:19:17,070 --> 00:19:13,630 that it is philosophically 409 00:19:19,980 --> 00:19:17,080 coherent to even could suggest that 410 00:19:22,170 --> 00:19:19,990 there is a moral scale for someone who 411 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:22,180 believes that they're a biological robot 412 00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:25,090 in life has no meaning if if life you 413 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:27,670 know the the famous French philosopher 414 00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:29,770 summed it up best he said there's only 415 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:33,400 one philosophical question suicide 416 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:36,010 if you don't think life has meaning if 417 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:37,690 you don't think you have freewill 418 00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,250 then why would anyone perpetuate this 419 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:43,360 ridiculous farce that they found 420 00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:45,310 themselves in this is I think the 421 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:48,160 inherent contradiction in atheism and 422 00:19:53,310 --> 00:19:50,410 and especially in humanitarian atheism 423 00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:53,320 that's why I say clear off all that 424 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:55,360 [\h__\h] and let's look at the science 425 00:19:59,850 --> 00:19:57,130 to find out if the assumption that 426 00:20:01,860 --> 00:19:59,860 atheists make which is the neuroscience 427 00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:01,870 premise that you are nothing more than 428 00:20:04,380 --> 00:20:03,280 your brain that you are a biological 429 00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:04,390 robot 430 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:06,960 let's examine whether the evidence 431 00:20:12,540 --> 00:20:09,850 stands up to that and if it doesn't then 432 00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:12,550 we you have to move on if it does then 433 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:14,080 I'm fine with all the flowery 434 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:17,530 philosophical stuffs do not feel love 435 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:19,930 for their children even though they 436 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:23,370 believe it is nothing in terms of 437 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:26,290 metaphysical or that that we have no 438 00:20:31,950 --> 00:20:28,770 purpose on the planet and whatever 439 00:20:34,530 --> 00:20:31,960 biology produced for all of us you mean 440 00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:34,540 they have no love would I have news for 441 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:36,790 you for their parents too and for their 442 00:20:47,250 --> 00:20:44,610 think the only honest philosophical 443 00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:47,260 argument from the Atheist camp in that 444 00:20:52,110 --> 00:20:50,710 comes from dr. Daniel Dennett even 445 00:20:53,850 --> 00:20:52,120 though I think he's somewhat of a nitwit 446 00:20:57,030 --> 00:20:53,860 when he said consciousness is an 447 00:20:58,830 --> 00:20:57,040 illusion that is your position I think I 448 00:21:01,770 --> 00:20:58,840 must correct me if I'm wrong but you're 449 00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:01,780 saying our sense that we have a 450 00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:04,960 conscious experience that we have free 451 00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:07,230 will that we have an independent 452 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:09,430 experience you're saying that is an 453 00:21:12,930 --> 00:21:11,530 illusion created by our brain are you 454 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:12,940 not are you saying something different 455 00:21:18,290 --> 00:21:15,790 what I'm saying I'm saying that the 456 00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:18,300 article that you read that the 457 00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:22,510 psychology lost its soul that is the 458 00:21:27,150 --> 00:21:25,540 soul is surplus to requirements souls 459 00:21:30,270 --> 00:21:27,160 are superfluous I 460 00:21:33,420 --> 00:21:30,280 it concerns their understanding and the 461 00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:33,430 modification of human behavior or animal 462 00:21:37,710 --> 00:21:35,950 behavior that is what I'm saying now you 463 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:37,720 are telling me to solve the puzzle of 464 00:21:45,810 --> 00:21:41,770 consciousness well inside no I said 465 00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:45,820 Lacan and science cancel everything can 466 00:21:51,330 --> 00:21:49,270 solve something's certainly we haven't 467 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:51,340 maybe who'll agree with it we haven't 468 00:22:00,540 --> 00:21:55,990 made progress in cosmology or whatever 469 00:22:02,910 --> 00:22:00,550 else by opening the Holy Scriptures we 470 00:22:08,670 --> 00:22:02,920 made progress slowly often with the 471 00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:08,680 errors by the scientific method so I am 472 00:22:13,470 --> 00:22:11,440 NOT claiming that I will answer you all 473 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:13,480 your questions but I certainly can say 474 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:17,050 that a psychologist does not need to 475 00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:19,390 evoke the concept of the soul to 476 00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:22,240 understand in the modify behavior such 477 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:25,830 as our sets of compulsive disorders 478 00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:28,330 prevent accidents whatever the evasive 479 00:22:34,650 --> 00:22:30,640 work or the basis that they have in 480 00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:34,660 front of them a biological organ a human 481 00:22:41,610 --> 00:22:38,740 with a brain okay I tell you what 482 00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:41,620 there's a lot more we could go on about 483 00:22:45,030 --> 00:22:43,390 this issue but maybe let's try and 484 00:22:48,450 --> 00:22:45,040 approach it from it from a different 485 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:48,460 angle a second clip I would try and play 486 00:22:51,660 --> 00:22:50,530 for you if you will and you've buried a 487 00:22:54,780 --> 00:22:51,670 debate I love where you're coming from 488 00:22:56,490 --> 00:22:54,790 I'm somewhat surprised again for the 489 00:22:57,710 --> 00:22:56,500 reasons I mentioned but it's awesome so 490 00:23:01,110 --> 00:22:57,720 let me play for you 491 00:23:03,090 --> 00:23:01,120 philosopher dr. bernardo Kastrup who i 492 00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:03,100 sent you this clip as well but let me 493 00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:04,960 play it for our audience who was 494 00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:07,960 probably well aware of Bernardo here so 495 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:11,830 let me play this you see you we always 496 00:23:16,140 --> 00:23:14,170 start from the fact that we are 497 00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:16,150 conscious consciousness is the only 498 00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:18,790 carrier of reality in existence that we 499 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:21,580 can know everything else is abstraction 500 00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:23,770 or inferences we make from consciousness 501 00:23:28,530 --> 00:23:26,080 but our culture is driven by this notion 502 00:23:30,510 --> 00:23:28,540 that the real reality is outside 503 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:30,520 consciousness it's a material universe 504 00:23:34,650 --> 00:23:32,170 fundamentally independent of 505 00:23:37,380 --> 00:23:34,660 consciousness and that our inner lives 506 00:23:39,690 --> 00:23:37,390 our subjective experiences arise from 507 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:39,700 specific arrangements of material in 508 00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:40,410 this 509 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:43,110 abstract world outside mind that's the 510 00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:44,490 philosophy of materialism which 511 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:46,470 underlies the most academic work and 512 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:49,170 their lives most of science as you know 513 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:52,710 it today but also underlies that the 514 00:23:58,130 --> 00:23:54,810 value system of our culture our economic 515 00:24:00,530 --> 00:23:58,140 system for instance if matter is the 516 00:24:03,470 --> 00:24:00,540 only real reality consciousness being 517 00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:03,480 just a kind of transient temporary side 518 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:06,030 effect then what meaning can there be to 519 00:24:11,570 --> 00:24:09,410 life but to accumulate material goods 520 00:24:13,070 --> 00:24:11,580 okay I'll tell you what before I say 521 00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:13,080 anything let me give you a chance to 522 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:17,790 comment on Barnardo's firstly what 523 00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:19,890 meaning can there be to live accept 524 00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:24,480 acquired the material goods this how 525 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:27,120 does he say how can you conclude that 526 00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:29,850 that the only meaning the only meaning 527 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:31,980 to life for a person who doesn't believe 528 00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:34,800 in Souls and goals is to acquire 529 00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:37,440 material goods I get pleasure when I 530 00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:40,260 take my kid on the swing my grandchild 531 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:43,440 on the swing why is he saying that I 532 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:45,530 don't have that pleasure because I 533 00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:48,420 believe that we have no purpose in life 534 00:24:52,190 --> 00:24:50,190 if you want to believe that your 535 00:24:53,810 --> 00:24:52,200 previous life is to serve God was to do 536 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:53,820 something go ahead and believe it I 537 00:24:59,360 --> 00:24:56,850 think there's no gun there's no evidence 538 00:25:01,070 --> 00:24:59,370 of Oh God for me I can't prove that 539 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:01,080 there a science will never be able to 540 00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:03,090 prove that or that science will never be 541 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:06,960 able to prove that this no so simply you 542 00:25:12,140 --> 00:25:08,850 don't need that that's what I'm arguing 543 00:25:14,930 --> 00:25:12,150 Alex but the other issue about events 544 00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:14,940 outside the material world I can tell 545 00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:18,990 you this that if I assume you know you 546 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:21,600 are right now in good spirits I give you 547 00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:24,090 tetra benzene it is a chance that you 548 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:25,830 will fall into depression because of 549 00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:29,730 this drug that depletes serotonin on the 550 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:31,710 other hand if you are depressed as many 551 00:25:35,810 --> 00:25:34,050 people become depressed virtually every 552 00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:35,820 one of us who would become depressed at 553 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:38,760 some point in life if we are given one 554 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:40,770 of the antidepressants there's a good 555 00:25:45,470 --> 00:25:43,170 chance that will recover sooner than if 556 00:25:49,390 --> 00:25:45,480 we were left on our own devices now 557 00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:49,400 these drugs act on serotonin some attend 558 00:25:54,180 --> 00:25:51,360 neurotransmitters in the brain they 559 00:25:58,090 --> 00:25:54,190 don't act on the soul 560 00:26:00,880 --> 00:25:58,100 right but George just to clarify no one 561 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:00,890 is arguing the close relationship 562 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:05,090 between the mind and the brain between 563 00:26:10,570 --> 00:26:07,970 our internal conscious experience and 564 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:10,580 the functioning either properly or 565 00:26:15,850 --> 00:26:13,010 improperly of our brain that's not at 566 00:26:19,030 --> 00:26:15,860 issue the analogy that many people use 567 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:19,040 is is our brain really the generator of 568 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:22,010 consciousness or is it the vehicle 569 00:26:26,110 --> 00:26:24,050 through which consciousness flows is it 570 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:26,120 like a TV set where consciousness is 571 00:26:32,370 --> 00:26:29,810 somehow everywhere in the brain is 572 00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:32,380 immersed in consciousness in both 573 00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:36,080 worldviews fit with the explanation that 574 00:26:40,690 --> 00:26:38,080 you gave I think what Barnardo's 575 00:26:43,270 --> 00:26:40,700 frustration is and it's my frustration 576 00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:43,280 and that I don't know if you have 577 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:45,700 thought about this much but that 578 00:26:53,140 --> 00:26:49,610 neurosciences premise is materialism 579 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:53,150 brain generates mind it's not a 580 00:26:58,990 --> 00:26:55,730 conclusion it's not a scientific 581 00:27:02,230 --> 00:26:59,000 conclusion yeah it's a premise it's a 582 00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:02,240 starting point and it needs to well it's 583 00:27:07,570 --> 00:27:04,480 not it's it that's the point it's 584 00:27:10,180 --> 00:27:07,580 consistent as long as we ignore all the 585 00:27:12,010 --> 00:27:10,190 data that it is it consistent with some 586 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:12,020 data that dunno if you have considered 587 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:15,290 these data come from these big brain 588 00:27:21,070 --> 00:27:17,570 preparations where consciousness can be 589 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:21,080 divided into as the brain is divided 590 00:27:26,620 --> 00:27:24,170 into virtually - that is not exactly 591 00:27:30,210 --> 00:27:26,630 because there are other connections be 592 00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:30,220 below the corpus callosum the principal 593 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:33,020 split brain patient I don't have 594 00:27:38,590 --> 00:27:36,050 interviewed Gazzaniga would it work if 595 00:27:41,380 --> 00:27:38,600 Sperry and Li do they have an article 596 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:41,390 which is referred to actually my article 597 00:27:47,860 --> 00:27:45,010 in the conversation that you refer to 598 00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:47,870 where you can read that that you can see 599 00:27:53,790 --> 00:27:50,830 that they are actually there is a way 600 00:27:57,180 --> 00:27:53,800 artificial way of course of dividing 601 00:27:59,980 --> 00:27:57,190 consciousness in the person into a 602 00:28:02,830 --> 00:27:59,990 collective speaking that is if you cut 603 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:02,840 the major highway connection between the 604 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:04,370 two hemispheres which is the corpus 605 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:06,170 callosum as they did to alleviate 606 00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:06,890 epilepsy 607 00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:09,200 back in the 60s some of the patients are 608 00:28:16,390 --> 00:28:13,520 still alive and then you can present 609 00:28:19,090 --> 00:28:16,400 single eye to one hemisphere to one 610 00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:19,100 visual field that is not crossed over 611 00:28:24,370 --> 00:28:20,720 because it cannot cross who the cops 612 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:24,380 callosum you see and you can test the 613 00:28:32,460 --> 00:28:28,730 two hemispheres and separately and 614 00:28:36,370 --> 00:28:32,470 expose them to different experiences and 615 00:28:40,330 --> 00:28:36,380 in that case you can have different 616 00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:40,340 responses from the two hemispheres there 617 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:43,190 was one occasion I think where a man was 618 00:28:49,260 --> 00:28:45,770 pulling his wife with one hand and 619 00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:49,270 pushing her way with the other hand so 620 00:28:56,380 --> 00:28:54,110 just consider that consciousness is also 621 00:29:01,420 --> 00:28:56,390 a physical thing and you can divide it 622 00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:01,430 in two well again a premise not a 623 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:04,700 conclusion by experimentation but a 624 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:07,490 premise a starting point a worldview a 625 00:29:13,090 --> 00:29:10,610 worldview that's very dogmatically held 626 00:29:14,580 --> 00:29:13,100 by many I mean on this show George one 627 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:14,590 of the reasons we've investigated 628 00:29:20,140 --> 00:29:17,210 near-death experience science so 629 00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:20,150 thoroughly is because it really kind of 630 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:22,670 cuts to the chase on all this stuff on 631 00:29:26,590 --> 00:29:24,410 all the studies that you've mentioned 632 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:26,600 and many other that neuroscientists like 633 00:29:32,410 --> 00:29:28,610 the point to do you can have other 634 00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:32,420 people like Jeffery Schwartz and dr. 635 00:29:36,190 --> 00:29:34,190 Mario Beauregard and many other really 636 00:29:38,770 --> 00:29:36,200 smart people I've had on the show point 637 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:38,780 to studies that suggest otherwise just 638 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:40,730 like the placebo effect and all the mine 639 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:43,130 brain or all the mind-body effects point 640 00:29:47,710 --> 00:29:45,290 otherwise but I'm digressing because 641 00:29:51,130 --> 00:29:47,720 really near-death experience science he 642 00:29:55,530 --> 00:29:51,140 clears up all this just say I suggest 643 00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:55,540 that you really do and Gazzaniga article 644 00:30:02,110 --> 00:29:59,600 and it is not an assumption it is data 645 00:30:04,210 --> 00:30:02,120 you might according with the data and 646 00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:04,220 say that's not well controlled or 647 00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:06,320 whatever that's possible and they may be 648 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:09,110 wrong but that is not assumption that is 649 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:13,850 now we're talking about data right data 650 00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:16,130 that doesn't refute the idea that the 651 00:30:20,590 --> 00:30:18,320 brain is immersed in a consciousness 652 00:30:22,090 --> 00:30:20,600 field and that somehow it 653 00:30:24,610 --> 00:30:22,100 interaction that we don't totally 654 00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:24,620 understand inside of that consciousness 655 00:30:28,930 --> 00:30:26,960 field is producing these varied effects 656 00:30:31,210 --> 00:30:28,940 so in the same way that you could have 657 00:30:32,830 --> 00:30:31,220 your TV in there and we could mess with 658 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:32,840 the circuitry and get all sorts of 659 00:30:36,970 --> 00:30:34,610 different things coming out of your TV 660 00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:36,980 and then we could say gee that TV 661 00:30:41,950 --> 00:30:39,110 generates all kinds of different content 662 00:30:43,870 --> 00:30:41,960 based on how we mess with the circuitry 663 00:30:45,549 --> 00:30:43,880 and then we would find out later well it 664 00:30:49,330 --> 00:30:45,559 really is dependent on the signal that's 665 00:30:52,060 --> 00:30:49,340 coming in to the TV not to the not just 666 00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:52,070 to the circuitry of the TV alone so that 667 00:30:56,139 --> 00:30:53,809 research that you're referring to is 668 00:30:57,669 --> 00:30:56,149 great as a body of research for 669 00:31:00,159 --> 00:30:57,679 understanding the relationship between 670 00:31:02,019 --> 00:31:00,169 the brain and consciousness but it 671 00:31:03,879 --> 00:31:02,029 doesn't get at the fundamental question 672 00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:03,889 of what is the nature of consciousness 673 00:31:08,619 --> 00:31:06,320 when does consciousness begin when does 674 00:31:10,690 --> 00:31:08,629 consciousness end what is necessary and 675 00:31:12,970 --> 00:31:10,700 sufficient to cause consciousness our 676 00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:12,980 other beings are other animals conscious 677 00:31:18,090 --> 00:31:14,750 none of these things are understood by 678 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:18,100 neuroscience there's just assumed I mean 679 00:31:22,649 --> 00:31:20,330 tell me which one tell me which one of 680 00:31:25,659 --> 00:31:22,659 those is understood tell me George was 681 00:31:27,399 --> 00:31:25,669 referred to consciousness being as 682 00:31:29,259 --> 00:31:27,409 something you know that would definition 683 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:29,269 but at least you can get an idea of it 684 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:31,610 something that we have more of when 685 00:31:36,129 --> 00:31:33,529 we're engaged in conversation but when 686 00:31:38,529 --> 00:31:36,139 somebody's listening someone less or 687 00:31:41,139 --> 00:31:38,539 when we're about to sleep less or when 688 00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:41,149 we're embryos less or whenever demanding 689 00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:44,960 and animal services that's complete 690 00:31:47,889 --> 00:31:46,159 let's complete it's complete nonsense 691 00:31:50,110 --> 00:31:47,899 right when does so when does 692 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:50,120 consciousness begin at what day does it 693 00:31:58,360 --> 00:31:55,610 begin in the embryo we have no it's no 694 00:32:00,850 --> 00:31:58,370 we have no idea they're just making it 695 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:00,860 they're just making it up George they're 696 00:32:08,740 --> 00:32:04,250 just blowing smoke what you say it's so 697 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:08,750 ready a you have to consider that they 698 00:32:11,980 --> 00:32:10,490 are degrees this not by model 699 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:11,990 consciousness not consciousness 700 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:14,090 independently this the chimpanzee has 701 00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:16,330 consciousness they can use a mirror in 702 00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:19,519 remove it sometimes you placed on their 703 00:32:23,409 --> 00:32:21,620 head they understand it's themselves 704 00:32:26,289 --> 00:32:23,419 they're looking at I'm not sure about 705 00:32:27,730 --> 00:32:26,299 the rat that's a good model for human 706 00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:27,740 behavior many times that's why 707 00:32:32,430 --> 00:32:29,809 psychologists are standing in the right 708 00:32:35,010 --> 00:32:32,440 so I don't 709 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:35,020 and dismiss it as a bimodal thing all 710 00:32:41,940 --> 00:32:39,730 right then let me return to near-death 711 00:32:45,150 --> 00:32:41,950 experience because I think it clarifies 712 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:45,160 this quite convincingly because now we 713 00:32:51,630 --> 00:32:49,090 have patients in hospital under well 714 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:51,640 understood medical conditions the what 715 00:32:55,860 --> 00:32:54,130 studied most because of that is cardiac 716 00:32:58,290 --> 00:32:55,870 arrest because we really understand the 717 00:33:00,300 --> 00:32:58,300 physiology of someone after they've 718 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:00,310 suffered cardiac arrest so there's 719 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:02,290 near-death experience occurs in many 720 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:04,330 different ways you know drowning even if 721 00:33:06,780 --> 00:33:05,650 someone's just flying in a plane and the 722 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:06,790 planes gonna crash they can have a 723 00:33:11,090 --> 00:33:08,410 near-death experience but the one that 724 00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:11,100 studied most scientifically by 725 00:33:15,450 --> 00:33:13,480 cardiologist many times or you know I 726 00:33:17,210 --> 00:33:15,460 just talked to our radiation oncologist 727 00:33:19,890 --> 00:33:17,220 who's probably studied more than any is 728 00:33:22,830 --> 00:33:19,900 the the in the cardiac arrest word 729 00:33:25,290 --> 00:33:22,840 because we know so clearly what happens 730 00:33:29,010 --> 00:33:25,300 to the brain after cardiac arrest that 731 00:33:31,220 --> 00:33:29,020 is that there is no no detectable brain 732 00:33:34,140 --> 00:33:31,230 function we don't have any model for how 733 00:33:36,990 --> 00:33:34,150 memories or conscious experience can be 734 00:33:39,660 --> 00:33:37,000 formed in a severely compromised brain 735 00:33:42,030 --> 00:33:39,670 after cardiac arrest yet when we look at 736 00:33:44,910 --> 00:33:42,040 these patients they clearly have not 737 00:33:47,550 --> 00:33:44,920 just conscious experiences but profound 738 00:33:49,050 --> 00:33:47,560 conscious experiences the most profound 739 00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:49,060 experiences they've ever had in their 740 00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:51,760 life they report being outside of their 741 00:33:55,860 --> 00:33:53,620 body in a way that we can't possibly be 742 00:33:58,050 --> 00:33:55,870 explained when they're reviewed 743 00:33:59,550 --> 00:33:58,060 medically ninety six percent of those 744 00:34:01,620 --> 00:33:59,560 people are able to confirm the 745 00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:01,630 experiences they have being outside 746 00:34:06,420 --> 00:34:04,000 their body is true over and over and 747 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:06,430 over again we have this huge amount of 748 00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:09,610 data that people in the materialist camp 749 00:34:13,820 --> 00:34:11,350 in the neuroscientist camp very 750 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:13,830 carefully step by pass and step aside 751 00:34:20,820 --> 00:34:17,290 from because there's really no medical 752 00:34:23,850 --> 00:34:20,830 explanation for it in the model that we 753 00:34:27,890 --> 00:34:23,860 have that the mind is generated by the 754 00:34:31,620 --> 00:34:27,900 brain so is that anything the poor 755 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:31,630 cardiac surgeons they did a disservice 756 00:34:39,659 --> 00:34:35,770 to this discipline by heart transplants 757 00:34:42,540 --> 00:34:39,669 and you know they showed that they love 758 00:34:44,090 --> 00:34:42,550 or whatever that over ste Beauty to the 759 00:34:52,370 --> 00:34:44,100 heart is nothing to 760 00:34:55,460 --> 00:34:52,380 heart so if I get the brain of your wife 761 00:34:58,340 --> 00:34:55,470 sorry the heart of your wife in a in a 762 00:34:59,570 --> 00:34:58,350 heart transplant Alex I will not fall in 763 00:35:01,880 --> 00:34:59,580 love with you 764 00:35:03,980 --> 00:35:01,890 so I just wanted to make that clear that 765 00:35:06,260 --> 00:35:03,990 the hack has nothing to do with emotions 766 00:35:09,470 --> 00:35:06,270 since you mentioned it but now going to 767 00:35:13,250 --> 00:35:09,480 the real question but the brain the 768 00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:13,260 brain does not die in heart transplants 769 00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:16,800 if the minerals die then that's it 770 00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:19,680 really as oh well you getting 771 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:22,310 resurrected but now I did have a 772 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:25,650 near-death experience reported to me by 773 00:35:38,420 --> 00:35:35,750 nearly lost he nearly lost his patient 774 00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:38,430 this patient but then he came back and 775 00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:42,510 he said I really went to Paradise he 776 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:47,520 said and I saw what is in there 1,000 777 00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:54,210 red Ferraris now you see that yes yes 778 00:35:59,380 --> 00:35:56,250 1000 red Ferraris that's right 779 00:36:02,630 --> 00:35:59,390 that's what I saw I just baked Alex is 780 00:36:05,180 --> 00:36:02,640 that somehow is that kind of anecdotal 781 00:36:08,270 --> 00:36:05,190 kind of story somehow supposed to be 782 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:08,280 well I mean you you realize that there's 783 00:36:13,220 --> 00:36:10,770 been hundreds of peer-reviewed studies 784 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:13,230 on near-death experience science 785 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:16,530 published so you know without regard to 786 00:36:20,930 --> 00:36:18,330 the to the story that you heard from 787 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:20,940 your friend there's a large body of 788 00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:23,970 research here it's not just stories 789 00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:26,310 passed among surgeons if it weren't 790 00:36:35,690 --> 00:36:32,100 there any hallucination that the person 791 00:36:38,030 --> 00:36:35,700 might have had in such things but who 792 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:38,040 tell me that he he or she went to 793 00:36:45,020 --> 00:36:40,250 another world so what's there 794 00:36:47,450 --> 00:36:45,030 well have to be skeptical about you seem 795 00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:47,460 to be skeptic no you don't you don't 796 00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:48,720 have to be you don't have to be 797 00:36:52,220 --> 00:36:50,550 skeptical I hate when folks say that all 798 00:36:54,110 --> 00:36:52,230 you have to do is be open-minded a good 799 00:36:55,670 --> 00:36:54,120 scientist you just investigate and then 800 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:55,680 you come to the conclusion that you come 801 00:36:58,700 --> 00:36:57,090 to I'll tell you the study 802 00:37:00,410 --> 00:36:58,710 that eyed people who listen the show are 803 00:37:02,660 --> 00:37:00,420 tired of hearing about this study but 804 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:02,670 for folks like you are uninitiated with 805 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:05,130 near-death experience science it's kind 806 00:37:09,050 --> 00:37:07,170 of one of the easiest ones to wrap your 807 00:37:11,330 --> 00:37:09,060 arms around it's been replicated twice 808 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:11,340 at least I think three or four times but 809 00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:13,770 the two people I know is dr. Janice 810 00:37:17,330 --> 00:37:15,030 Holden at the University of North Texas 811 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:17,340 and dr. penny Sartori 812 00:37:23,420 --> 00:37:21,210 and the UK I forget which university was 813 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:23,430 in they did a rather simple experiment 814 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:24,930 they winded it into a cardiac arrest 815 00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:28,050 ward and they talked to these subjects 816 00:37:31,130 --> 00:37:30,060 before they experienced a cardiac arrest 817 00:37:34,310 --> 00:37:31,140 and they asked if they would participate 818 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:34,320 in this study and they did unfortunately 819 00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:35,970 the people in the study had a cardiac 820 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:38,400 arrest and they went to the people after 821 00:37:43,930 --> 00:37:40,530 they had a cardiac arrest and they asked 822 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:43,940 them to report in detail their 823 00:37:48,140 --> 00:37:47,370 resuscitation so as you know that's not 824 00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:48,150 like the movies 825 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:50,160 it doesn't begin 10 seconds after you 826 00:37:54,890 --> 00:37:53,370 have a cardiac arrest it begins one to 827 00:37:56,030 --> 00:37:54,900 two minutes usually around two minutes 828 00:37:59,540 --> 00:37:56,040 after you've had a cardiac arrest 829 00:38:02,080 --> 00:37:59,550 resuscitation begins so there is no from 830 00:38:06,220 --> 00:38:02,090 a neuroscience standpoint there's no 831 00:38:08,420 --> 00:38:06,230 thing happening in the brain it is 832 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:08,430 flatlined if there is no electrical 833 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:10,770 activity after two minutes of being 834 00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:13,890 deprived of your heart so so do you have 835 00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:16,350 two groups now your cardiac arrest 836 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:17,910 patients are divided into two groups one 837 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:19,650 group that says I had a near-death 838 00:38:24,140 --> 00:38:22,170 experience and I saw my resuscitation 839 00:38:25,730 --> 00:38:24,150 and the other group said I don't know 840 00:38:28,580 --> 00:38:25,740 what you're talking about I was dead and 841 00:38:30,290 --> 00:38:28,590 now I'm back well as it turns out the 842 00:38:32,810 --> 00:38:30,300 group that had the near-death experience 843 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:32,820 and claimed to see their resuscitation 844 00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:36,090 was dramatically better at reporting the 845 00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:38,460 details of their resuscitation and 846 00:38:42,140 --> 00:38:40,560 things that were clearly outside of 847 00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:42,150 their vision outside of the immediate 848 00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:45,390 room outside below they're there their 849 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:47,280 table and all the rest of this so this 850 00:38:51,650 --> 00:38:49,410 is scientific work published in a 851 00:38:55,730 --> 00:38:51,660 peer-reviewed journal that demonstrates 852 00:38:58,970 --> 00:38:55,740 an unexplainable ability of people to 853 00:39:01,310 --> 00:38:58,980 have conscious experiences have memories 854 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:01,320 formed at a time when they didn't have a 855 00:39:06,230 --> 00:39:03,810 brain so it just shatters the whole 856 00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:06,240 notion that we can dance around you talk 857 00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:07,710 about all these other people but that's 858 00:39:10,660 --> 00:39:09,780 really the the simplest way to kind of 859 00:39:14,110 --> 00:39:10,670 get to it is 860 00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:14,120 that kind isn't able to see things that 861 00:39:19,390 --> 00:39:16,250 were under the table that were not in 862 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:19,400 their view somehow a spirit of a us 863 00:39:23,980 --> 00:39:21,770 wandered around and when at the table 864 00:39:25,990 --> 00:39:23,990 and saw them is that what you mean we 865 00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:26,000 don't we don't have to hypothesize in 866 00:39:29,770 --> 00:39:28,310 spirit we just this is a survey this is 867 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:29,780 a medical survey we go in and we ask 868 00:39:33,310 --> 00:39:32,330 them to report details of their 869 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:33,320 resuscitation 870 00:39:37,180 --> 00:39:35,570 you know or what happened next well they 871 00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:37,190 wheeled in this cart what color were the 872 00:39:41,260 --> 00:39:39,200 paddles how many people wheeled it in 873 00:39:42,610 --> 00:39:41,270 what did they do what did they do next 874 00:39:44,710 --> 00:39:42,620 so people are recalling the 875 00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:44,720 resuscitation people who don't have a 876 00:39:48,550 --> 00:39:46,760 near-death experience just go I don't 877 00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:48,560 know what you're talking about I don't 878 00:39:52,450 --> 00:39:50,660 have any memories of that people who 879 00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:52,460 have a near-death experience are able to 880 00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:54,730 report in detail in an accurate way 881 00:40:00,100 --> 00:39:58,130 things that are verifiable about what 882 00:40:04,030 --> 00:40:00,110 happened during their resuscitation it's 883 00:40:07,090 --> 00:40:04,040 this is just one of OU many dozens 884 00:40:08,590 --> 00:40:07,100 hundreds of near-death experience 885 00:40:11,350 --> 00:40:08,600 science that's published in 886 00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:11,360 peer-reviewed journals that we just that 887 00:40:16,030 --> 00:40:13,040 a lot of people just ignore because it's 888 00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:16,040 uncomfortable it breaks the paradigm we 889 00:40:24,190 --> 00:40:18,710 have this mind science scientists would 890 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:24,200 love to tear down a paradigm science of 891 00:40:32,020 --> 00:40:29,050 course science is not a religion science 892 00:40:34,690 --> 00:40:32,030 scientist would love to tear down a big 893 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:34,700 name and say no that fear is incorrect 894 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:37,130 this secret they might even get a big 895 00:40:42,130 --> 00:40:38,930 price for that they certainly get 896 00:40:45,220 --> 00:40:42,140 advancement in their career this is not 897 00:40:46,270 --> 00:40:45,230 we the science is a different thing I 898 00:40:48,250 --> 00:40:46,280 don't think you have a good impression 899 00:40:52,660 --> 00:40:48,260 of science you're doing this broadcast 900 00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:52,670 but to tell me that this is published in 901 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:54,560 peer-reviewed journals well I'd like to 902 00:41:00,430 --> 00:40:57,610 know if such an image a major 903 00:41:03,580 --> 00:41:00,440 observation goes contre to so many other 904 00:41:11,050 --> 00:41:03,590 things is it published in nature in 905 00:41:14,250 --> 00:41:11,060 science George because this is I have 906 00:41:16,930 --> 00:41:14,260 300 episodes of why I have 300 episodes 907 00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:16,940 answering the question why I think you 908 00:41:23,470 --> 00:41:21,110 are in incredibly generous spirit that 909 00:41:27,940 --> 00:41:23,480 that defies your fill 910 00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:27,950 Ithaca rantings about atheism you are 911 00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,710 you are not an atheist in your soul 912 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:32,720 George and it comes through loud and 913 00:41:38,859 --> 00:41:36,050 clear but your you're just you are not 914 00:41:42,340 --> 00:41:38,869 well informed about the science that 915 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:42,350 contradicts this idea that that we are 916 00:41:46,810 --> 00:41:44,210 that we are these biological robots 917 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:46,820 because you're generous to me then I 918 00:41:57,730 --> 00:41:54,290 deserve but certainly you can a it to 919 00:42:00,099 --> 00:41:57,740 save you to save your soul on the basis 920 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:00,109 of these experiences which can be 921 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:02,450 interpreted in a different way in from 922 00:42:09,370 --> 00:42:04,850 what you told me this is not the 923 00:42:13,150 --> 00:42:09,380 published in major magazines such as a 924 00:42:18,310 --> 00:42:13,160 nature or science nature right such as 925 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:18,320 nature nature's where well I tell you 926 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:22,010 what you know the probably the most well 927 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:24,770 known near-death experience science 928 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:27,050 research was published in The Lancet how 929 00:42:32,910 --> 00:42:29,810 does that do one of the top two medical 930 00:42:40,270 --> 00:42:32,920 journals in the world the alliance's a 931 00:42:43,150 --> 00:42:40,280 good journal and saying that but you can 932 00:42:45,340 --> 00:42:43,160 get a scientific study of near-death 933 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:45,350 experiences of course you can get a 934 00:42:49,780 --> 00:42:47,210 scientific study of it I don't know what 935 00:42:51,790 --> 00:42:49,790 they publish there but to say that 936 00:42:53,770 --> 00:42:51,800 somebody was able to see underneath the 937 00:42:56,020 --> 00:42:53,780 table though there was no way of saying 938 00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:56,030 it except it was a floating eye 939 00:43:02,290 --> 00:42:57,890 underneath and all over the table 940 00:43:04,210 --> 00:43:02,300 well that is I would like to see the 941 00:43:07,390 --> 00:43:04,220 study to study the study to see the 942 00:43:10,060 --> 00:43:07,400 controls that they use any scientist can 943 00:43:11,710 --> 00:43:10,070 make a mistake in fact one in 20 of the 944 00:43:15,010 --> 00:43:11,720 articles that we read in nature and 945 00:43:17,290 --> 00:43:15,020 silence are wrong because of the 946 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:17,300 statistical approach that we use but 947 00:43:26,070 --> 00:43:20,930 what I really want to leave you with is 948 00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:26,080 that you don't need to hypothesize these 949 00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:29,359 souls or Madhavi the metaphysics to 950 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:31,820 understand behavior and you can be as 951 00:43:36,420 --> 00:43:33,410 happy and as altruistic 952 00:43:39,059 --> 00:43:36,430 as any other person next to you 953 00:43:43,170 --> 00:43:39,069 with ru perhaps more if you actually 954 00:43:47,339 --> 00:43:43,180 understand who we are that we are a 955 00:43:50,009 --> 00:43:47,349 branch of the primates the closest 956 00:43:52,049 --> 00:43:50,019 relative to us is a chimpanzee and the 957 00:43:53,999 --> 00:43:52,059 chimpanzee scroll closest relative is 958 00:43:57,839 --> 00:43:54,009 not the gorilla it is us 959 00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:57,849 so we are one of those creatures and we 960 00:44:02,279 --> 00:44:00,400 have dazzled ourselves who TVs etc but 961 00:44:05,279 --> 00:44:02,289 for for hundreds of thousands of years 962 00:44:06,809 --> 00:44:05,289 with the same intellectual capacity who 963 00:44:08,549 --> 00:44:06,819 are not much different from the other 964 00:44:11,970 --> 00:44:08,559 primates but we managed to step on each 965 00:44:13,589 --> 00:44:11,980 other's shoulders in produce Science and 966 00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:13,599 Technology which today by the way 967 00:44:21,509 --> 00:44:16,720 threatens existence if you look at it I 968 00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:21,519 am NOT idolizing the brain I think it's 969 00:44:25,890 --> 00:44:23,730 a limited organ that imposes 970 00:44:28,049 --> 00:44:25,900 intellectual motivational and emotional 971 00:44:29,819 --> 00:44:28,059 course pensioners not much different 972 00:44:32,339 --> 00:44:29,829 from that on the chip and see and you 973 00:44:34,170 --> 00:44:32,349 might even notice that even in yourself 974 00:44:36,450 --> 00:44:34,180 when you are driving on the road and 975 00:44:39,450 --> 00:44:36,460 somebody cuts ahead of you and they join 976 00:44:43,769 --> 00:44:39,460 you and taking your your right of way 977 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:43,779 how are you might yet for that so it's 978 00:44:52,769 --> 00:44:45,970 not that I idolize the brain it's just 979 00:44:56,670 --> 00:44:52,779 that to believe in ghosts and near-death 980 00:45:00,509 --> 00:44:56,680 experiences well in in the in the lack 981 00:45:02,279 --> 00:45:00,519 of strong evidence is also and not 982 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:02,289 according to you as a title of your 983 00:45:10,739 --> 00:45:07,450 program skeptical skeptical from 984 00:45:13,559 --> 00:45:10,749 skeptical right from those from those 985 00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:13,569 philosophers who always never came to a 986 00:45:17,940 --> 00:45:15,910 conclusion but always kept asking 987 00:45:22,289 --> 00:45:17,950 questions George you've been a part of 988 00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:22,299 some very important research brain 989 00:45:26,910 --> 00:45:25,089 research and you started with animals 990 00:45:30,799 --> 00:45:26,920 but it's also you've also looked at the 991 00:45:33,059 --> 00:45:30,809 human brain what would people be most 992 00:45:35,099 --> 00:45:33,069 interested in in terms of your career 993 00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:35,109 what you've discovered if you could just 994 00:45:40,140 --> 00:45:37,599 kind of give some quick highlights on 995 00:45:40,940 --> 00:45:40,150 some of the the main discoveries you 996 00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:40,950 were 997 00:45:49,460 --> 00:45:46,560 our work assist scientists to navigate 998 00:45:52,490 --> 00:45:49,470 seamlessly between the brain of humans 999 00:45:55,090 --> 00:45:52,500 and experimental animals so someone 1000 00:45:59,030 --> 00:45:55,100 inspired by human considerations such as 1001 00:46:03,260 --> 00:45:59,040 epilepsy our thymus partners depression 1002 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:03,270 anxiety schizophrenia may produce an 1003 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:06,210 animal model of a disease and there are 1004 00:46:11,780 --> 00:46:08,970 genetic models or behavioral you can 1005 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:11,790 produce anxiety in Iraq if you shock 1006 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:14,730 them enough times in a chamber there 1007 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:16,170 would be anxious next time you place 1008 00:46:20,330 --> 00:46:18,690 them there and you can then look at 1009 00:46:22,430 --> 00:46:20,340 Angie oolitic drugs to see what might 1010 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:22,440 assist them or other intervention such 1011 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:24,330 as flooding put them in there without a 1012 00:46:32,510 --> 00:46:27,770 shock so there's study models in the 1013 00:46:34,130 --> 00:46:32,520 disease in the experimental animals and 1014 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:34,140 then they want to relate the 1015 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:35,610 observations back to the humans and who 1016 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:38,250 provide them with the atlases to 1017 00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:42,050 investigate the brain and to actually 1018 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:44,880 relate the observations to navigate 1019 00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:47,490 between the brains in the case of our 1020 00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:52,110 human brain atlases they can also use 1021 00:46:59,180 --> 00:46:56,400 the neurosurgeons use them in surgery 1022 00:47:01,940 --> 00:46:59,190 theaters and when they were to stimulate 1023 00:47:04,370 --> 00:47:01,950 the brain for treatment of Parkinson's 1024 00:47:07,460 --> 00:47:04,380 for example there's some efficacious 1025 00:47:09,230 --> 00:47:07,470 treatment for some people now if you 1026 00:47:13,150 --> 00:47:09,240 think that excited is really most is 1027 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:13,160 that we find an area in the brain that 1028 00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:16,410 was not known before to science and we 1029 00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:18,480 found such areas seen in mammalian brain 1030 00:47:25,850 --> 00:47:23,910 and 91 areas we found we gave them names 1031 00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:25,860 because you have a chance to name 1032 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:29,250 something if you identified that is the 1033 00:47:35,540 --> 00:47:31,170 most pleasant thing my colleague Charles 1034 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:35,550 Watson who plays the saxophone when we 1035 00:47:42,460 --> 00:47:37,890 are lucky and we find a nucleus we stop 1036 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:46,610 awesome so what what you and dr. Watson 1037 00:47:50,690 --> 00:47:49,290 are kind of best known for is again 1038 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:50,700 that's kind of an interesting term of 1039 00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:54,170 this atlas this mapping system for 1040 00:48:00,040 --> 00:47:57,290 research scientists to make the 1041 00:48:01,990 --> 00:48:00,050 connection between experimental animals 1042 00:48:05,500 --> 00:48:02,000 and the human brain right so that sounds 1043 00:48:07,830 --> 00:48:05,510 like vital work in terms of bringing on 1044 00:48:12,460 --> 00:48:07,840 new treatments new therapies new drugs 1045 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:12,470 suppose that is most people who study 1046 00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:17,770 the brain in relation to these diseases 1047 00:48:25,690 --> 00:48:22,250 need our atlases to navigate to find 1048 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:25,700 where they are either if you consider 1049 00:48:29,020 --> 00:48:26,330 the brain 1050 00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:29,030 post-mortem or if they have an image of 1051 00:48:37,390 --> 00:48:32,510 the brain in the scanned PET scan the 1052 00:48:39,580 --> 00:48:37,400 MRI they need like a three directory 1053 00:48:44,070 --> 00:48:39,590 much like on a map of the US you can 1054 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:44,080 place the railway lines forested areas 1055 00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:47,810 population centers so on a map of the 1056 00:48:52,540 --> 00:48:50,480 brain you can place the kind of neurons 1057 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:52,550 you get the kind of neurotransmitters 1058 00:48:58,300 --> 00:48:56,330 you have receptors enzymes or the 1059 00:49:00,820 --> 00:48:58,310 function would function that area here's 1060 00:49:05,230 --> 00:49:00,830 what connections it has and that helps 1061 00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:05,240 people formulate hypotheses about normal 1062 00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:09,680 and abnormal human function great great 1063 00:49:15,070 --> 00:49:12,710 well it sounds like very important work 1064 00:49:17,650 --> 00:49:15,080 and you're to be commended for it and I 1065 00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:17,660 certainly do appreciate you joining me I 1066 00:49:23,230 --> 00:49:20,510 think it was a very spirited debate I 1067 00:49:25,330 --> 00:49:23,240 hope folks got a lot out of it I have a 1068 00:49:27,670 --> 00:49:25,340 tremendous amount of respect for what 1069 00:49:31,180 --> 00:49:27,680 you bring to it as I say I wish I could 1070 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:31,190 muster up some more anger at what you're 1071 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:32,810 saying but I really can't because you 1072 00:49:37,930 --> 00:49:35,570 have such a wonderful way of and a 1073 00:49:40,990 --> 00:49:37,940 positive message about conveying these 1074 00:49:43,450 --> 00:49:41,000 these ideas and a positive worldview so 1075 00:49:45,370 --> 00:49:43,460 it's been a real delight talking to you 1076 00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:45,380 our guest has been dr. George Parkes 1077 00:49:51,070 --> 00:49:48,640 eNOS thank you joining me on skeptic oh 1078 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:51,080 thanks again to dr. Parkes eNOS for 1079 00:49:54,370 --> 00:49:53,090 joining me today on skeptic oh I guess 1080 00:49:57,580 --> 00:49:54,380 the one question I tee up from this 1081 00:50:00,340 --> 00:49:57,590 interview is one of the big ones has the 1082 00:50:03,010 --> 00:50:00,350 paradigm shifted and it's become almost 1083 00:50:04,930 --> 00:50:03,020 an assumption in this show because we 1084 00:50:06,430 --> 00:50:04,940 get into this echo chamber and we 1085 00:50:07,310 --> 00:50:06,440 believe that we see this growing trend 1086 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:07,320 pointing toward 1087 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:09,330 the end of materialism and that we see 1088 00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:10,530 this advancement of near-death 1089 00:50:15,620 --> 00:50:12,480 experience science or mediumship 1090 00:50:18,590 --> 00:50:15,630 research or whatever and then we talk to 1091 00:50:21,380 --> 00:50:18,600 George so is this just a matter of a 1092 00:50:23,150 --> 00:50:21,390 changing of the guard George is at the 1093 00:50:25,580 --> 00:50:23,160 end of his career and people who are 1094 00:50:27,830 --> 00:50:25,590 replacing him coming in have this new 1095 00:50:30,020 --> 00:50:27,840 paradigm perspective is that what we're 1096 00:50:33,470 --> 00:50:30,030 seeing or are we deluding ourselves 1097 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:33,480 about the rate of change so let me know 1098 00:50:36,290 --> 00:50:34,410 your thoughts on that 1099 00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:36,300 either way the place to do it of course 1100 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:38,910 is through The Skeptical website at ske 1101 00:50:44,060 --> 00:50:42,690 PTI koat.com leave a comment there jump 1102 00:50:46,370 --> 00:50:44,070 over the forum connect with me on 1103 00:50:47,900 --> 00:50:46,380 Facebook however you do it just let me 1104 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:47,910 know what you think of the show and let 1105 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:50,010 me know what you think of this interview 1106 00:50:53,930 --> 00:50:52,290 with George now you may have noticed 1107 00:50:55,940 --> 00:50:53,940 there wasn't a transcript for this show 1108 00:50:57,740 --> 00:50:55,950 and that's because I was really just 1109 00:50:59,420 --> 00:50:57,750 trying to crank this out at the end and 1110 00:51:02,120 --> 00:50:59,430 I didn't think there was a lot of really 1111 00:51:03,470 --> 00:51:02,130 new material here just a rehashing of a 1112 00:51:05,450 --> 00:51:03,480 lot of stuff we've talked about in the 1113 00:51:07,940 --> 00:51:05,460 past so so in the interest of time I 1114 00:51:11,060 --> 00:51:07,950 pushed it out without the transcript but 1115 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:11,070 of course you can expect those on future 1116 00:51:15,860 --> 00:51:13,770 episodes of skeptical of which I have 1117 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:15,870 many in the hopper and some really 1118 00:51:20,330 --> 00:51:17,970 really good ones I think you will enjoy 1119 00:51:23,570 --> 00:51:20,340 please stay with me for all of that 1120 00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:23,580 until next time take care and bye for